Some words...

..................WTF?! YOU DONT KNOW WHAT IS "XRUMER"?!

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Ando
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Some words...

Post by Ando »

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Last edited by Ando on Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Appetite4
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We appreciate your honesty

Post by Appetite4 »

Hello Ando,

What you have experienced, and what only some of us on these forums have identified, is something I call the "TRUE" ZZT Syndrome. Not the excellent "bad ZZT design" tutorial, but rather a common psychological trend I've seen for well over two decades worth of ZZT adventures.

Designing a cheap "world of our own" is an escape for many of us. I could see that not just Flimsy but a whole lot of us suffered from feelings of persecution. This explains all the pointless forum fights, the astronomical pride people take in their works, the inexplicable hostility and betrayal from NPCs in the games themselves, and countless random-death encounters for the protagonist that very much reflect one's perception of an unfair world in real life.

Amidst all this, how does one tell the "just upset" from the genuinely psychotic? Is it even our business to know?

I'm probably going to regret saying this, but here goes. In the early 1990s, I created a full-length ZZT adventure that requires the main character to blow up his own school. For obvious reasons, I haven't circulated it, and it is definitely not hosted on Z2. But in real life, I never killed anyone, never beat anyone up, never learned how to build bombs, or even fire real guns. The angst came, it went, and I moved on.

The thing is, it's good for people to talk about it. Somehow, ZZTers "talk" about their problems by creating a world, and yet we can still fall into the trap of mindless hostility for desperate want of being taking overly seriously. The feeling isn't even unique to us--forums everywhere on the internet routinely explode with people 100% certain of their sky-high moral pedestal to lecture others.

So, all things considered, you don't need to apologize to me. I hope others feel the same.
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Re: Some words...

Post by H1~~ »

I don't even know any of you guys (& gals) until I even came to these forums until I joined in later 2013, so I can't relate.
Maybe it's better that way?
Flimsy Parkins? Don't know him.
Ando? Don't know him.
Appetite4? Who's that guy, I know he posted on z2 recently, but that doesn't tell me much about him, his interests & personality, and all that.
But there is one thing you mentioned that I can't resist but to pick up:
Ando wrote: back when I was around here. My parents pulled their strings and got me labelled with a bogus condition, and got everyone to believe in it, and then they used their connections to get doped up by some fucking idiot bribed by Big Pharma. I was on five different medications at one time (I'm only on one, now). I think that it contributed to me being somewhat slow emotionally and socially for a bit, not to mention the fact that my father was an abusive chimp and my mother was to get cancer and eventually die (she died four years ago).

Interestingly, I have a mild variant of Schizoaffective Disorder, although I am not manic. There isn't much I can do at this point.
..
So I'm not the only one...
Did I ever tell you the story about how my parents had me diagnosed with Asperger's (not Autism or ASD, Asperger's), just so I would have more 'opportunities' in Life, only for me to wind up socially excluded & unable to live a 'normal' life for the last 20-something years... missing out on the vast majority of my childhood... messing me up into a socially awkward and ultimately isolated lifestyle that I live now...
It's a very long story, and it isn't finished yet-- I'm assuming because the rest hasn't happened yet? I mean it might be done already and just not finished being told yet, but that's gonna depend on whether you believe in 'free will' and all of that kinds of stuff.
It seems as though everyone I know tells me to "move on" and "forgive my parents" and whatnot, and what's worse, my biological parents themselves seem to have no remorse whatsoever for the wrong done to me, no matter how or what I try to explain to them, in terms of what exact was wrong with what they did (it wasn't just them, of course, but I find them among those most responsible).


My biological father, when asked specifically, was able to tell me with a straight face, that not only did he [and the others] do nothing wrong, but that the things that were done to/for me actually helped me, as if I would only have been worse off without it. At that point it wasn't even about him absolving himself of all blame anymore, just the fact that he could say that so plainly and with such a straight face. His words included "your mother and I have done the best we possibly could have for you"-- god, it hurts even just to write that out.
My biological mother, on the other hand, suggested I take up Marijuana to cope with the emotional pain. We were talking about it too, then 'coping mechanisms' came up, and then 'drugs came up'... I asked her in appallment whether she honestly thinks I should start doing pot just to cope with her, her husband, doctors & school board officials essentially conspiring (on an active and ongoing basis) to keep me from growing up fully & on time and being able to live like 'normal kids'. Sure, I wasn't helping by always arguing with them about it, but what else was I supposed to have thought of doing? Anyway, she just told me 'yes', and I screamed at her and ran out. I was baffled at myself for having done that, I mean, I never run out of an argument. I always just 'escalate', you know get more pissed off and have more to have to talk about in a shorter period of time, or the other person leaves instead (eventually). I think that was the first time I actually did that. But, I suppose, I did it out of necessity. I just know that if I hadn't run out of that one my hands would have been around her throat.


Regardless, if what you're telling me is true, and this actually happens to people... then maybe I'm not so in the wrong for being pissed off at my biological parents.
It's a ton worse now that I'm in this weird spot where I can talk and have normal conversations with them, and I can tell they do care about me and love me and all that junk-- even though they pretty much fucked a large part of my Life up as a result of 'doing it wrong'-- but I still have to live in their house, so now I'm having to deal with the bitterness towards/about them while at the same time I have to see them face to face every day.


In, an article I found less than 24 hours ago ( http://www.slate.com/articles/life/fami ... _made.html ):
In a 2008 essay in the journal In Character, history professor Wilfred McClay writes that as a society we have twisted the meaning of forgiveness into a therapeutic act for the victim: “[F]orgiveness is in danger of being debased into a kind of cheap grace, a waiving of standards of justice without which such transactions have no meaning.” Jean Bethke Elshtain, a professor at the University of Chicago Divinity School writes that, “There is a watered-down but widespread form of ‘forgiveness’ best tagged preemptory or exculpatory forgiveness. That is, without any indication of regret or remorse from perpetrators of even the most heinous crimes, we are enjoined by many not to harden our hearts but rather to ‘forgive.’ ”

I agree with these more bracing views about what forgiveness should entail. Choosing not to forgive does not doom someone to being mired in the past forever. Accepting what happened and moving on is a good general principle. But it can be comforting for those being browbeaten to absolve their parents to recognize that forgiveness works best as a mutual endeavor. After all, many adult children of abusers have never heard a word of regret from their parent or parents. People who have the capacity to ruthlessly maltreat their children tend toward self-justification, not shame.
Meanwhile, "Asperger's" was recently taken out of official diagnosing practice, when they went from the DSM-IV to the DSM-V, so now after everything else I'm stuck like this as result of a long chain of events & mistakes that all started from something that, officially, doesn't even exist.
My friend Izumi stresses the point that my main problem is that I just overanalyze things, but I'm like shit, if I don't overanalyze everything then where the hell else am I supposed to get the Angst I use for my Writing(s)?

Appetite4 wrote:What you have experienced, and what only some of us on these forums have identified, is something I call the "TRUE" ZZT Syndrome. Not the excellent "bad ZZT design" tutorial, but rather a common psychological trend I've seen for well over two decades worth of ZZT adventures.

Designing a cheap "world of our own" is an escape for many of us. I could see that not just Flimsy but a whole lot of us suffered from feelings of persecution. This explains all the pointless forum fights, the astronomical pride people take in their works, the inexplicable hostility and betrayal from NPCs in the games themselves, and countless random-death encounters for the protagonist that very much reflect one's perception of an unfair world in real life.

Amidst all this, how does one tell the "just upset" from the genuinely psychotic? Is it even our business to know?

I'm probably going to regret saying this, but here goes. In the early 1990s, I created a full-length ZZT adventure that requires the main character to blow up his own school. For obvious reasons, I haven't circulated it, and it is definitely not hosted on Z2. But in real life, I never killed anyone, never beat anyone up, never learned how to build bombs, or even fire real guns. The angst came, it went, and I moved on.

The thing is, it's good for people to talk about it. Somehow, ZZTers "talk" about their problems by creating a world, and yet we can still fall into the trap of mindless hostility for desperate want of being taking overly seriously. The feeling isn't even unique to us--forums everywhere on the internet routinely explode with people 100% certain of their sky-high moral pedestal to lecture others.
Holy shit, there really is a 'common thread' that runs behind the psyche of the majority of ZZT community members.
I thought it was just that you guys were cool, like a bunch of geeky white kids who program together, rip on each other & make jokes at each other, and make fun of other groups of people for not being made fun of as easily... um... not sure if that fits any known stereotype or cultural/character cliché, but there was this 'image' I had of the ZZT community as a whole as these really cool, eccentricated, middle-to-upper middle classs teenagers & young adults who all kind of had the same near-psychotic rebellious angst, despite all the differences. Maybe I was right? 'cause I never knew about the forums or browsed them until shortly before I joined, almosy all of that 'image' came from the games themselves, and not even just the ones with 'cameos' either.


Does it really suck so much to be a ZZT'er?
I mean, I'm sure ZZT itself isn't so much the cause, as maybe even a result of it, but I never figured so many ZZT'ers had so many of the same problems, or like one big but sublte one, a common thread around which a manner of similar problems that all vary to slight degrees from ZZT'er to ZZT'er can be wrapped...
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Re: Some words...

Post by bitbot »

here let me give you the link

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Ando
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Re: We appreciate your honesty

Post by Ando »

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Re: Some words...

Post by Commodore »

Basically I have come to the conclusion that many associated with ZZT had something "wrong" with them, and by that I mean there was something about them that prevented them from, in the real world, being "right", be it family relationships, sexuality (both orientation and coming of age), or something else, something about themselves they were more at ease within the community or could dismiss entirely. At a certain point for some, the world building became just a background, a loose reason to participate in a community that was for many anonymous, mixed in were a few groups of people that actually knew each other in RL.

For me, I genuinely liked the game, and making stuff, and the community was a neat place that shaped what sort of game to make. I generally tried to avoid conflict nor did I stir the pot. That said, I can't say I was immune to the mob mentality of the cool kids.

There's a fine line between playful jibbing and hurtful words and I think that's a line that has been bent and broken often here. At the same time, this is a very little sandbox in a big Internet. Imagine if you were growing up now in the facebook era. Maybe it would be better, I don't know, but maybe less likely to be able to leave in the past.

In my (not personal) experience, people who have suffered abuse tend to emphasize the negativity of the world at large.
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Re: Some words...

Post by Ando »

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Last edited by Ando on Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some words...

Post by zamros »

Hi Ando
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Re: Some words...

Post by Zenith Nadir »

*floats down from the swiss alps* Greetings :icannotcontrol: *sweeping arm gesture* I'll be watching over u
he looked upon the world and saw it was still depraved :fvkk:

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Re: Some words...

Post by Mooseka »

good thread
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Re: Some words...

Post by Zenith Nadir »

that is a damn lie and you know it, moose

personally i hope ando makes russian sexy boi 2 and mails a floppy to putin
he looked upon the world and saw it was still depraved :fvkk:

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Re: Some words...

Post by ZZTBandit »

Gregory Janson wrote:I like how that was a snipe at ando and burstroc at the same time without mentioning either of them by name
Zenith Nadir wrote:ando's so psychotic, he'll probably hunt down and murder each and every one of us...
dave2 wrote: hey ando

you're a stupid bastard and everything you say is retarded.
zamros wrote: [ando] are you retarded, or gay
Dr. Dos wrote: Ando sucks.
Dr. Dos wrote: ignore ando. He's retarded.

Also Ando here's why we chose zaphod over the rest of the internet:

belsambar was a ONE TIME PAYMENT.

I mean if you want to buy some hosting and spend cash every month out of your own pocket for z2 you're welcome to do so.
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Re: Some words...

Post by nuero »

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Re: Some words...

Post by Dr. Dos »

We were all horrible teenagers, each in our own unique way. :freud:
Visit the Museum of ZZT
Follow Worlds of ZZT on Twitter

Apologies for the old post you may have just read.
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Re: Some words...

Post by zamros »

To clear things up, I no longer think Ando is "retarded" or "gay" and frankly I retract all statements I have made containing those words
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