Now we see the violence inherent in the system!

Post by **Alexis Janson** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:35 am

Quantum P keeps locking this thread! He's gone mad with power!

Seriously, what's the problem? I'm not spamming, and while I may have insulted a few people, if that's grounds to lock a thread this whole forum would have to be sealed in a big vault.

It seems he just doesn't like what I'm saying. In any case, I've said my piece, maybe he'll leave this one open so people can respond to me.

Plus, he's probably just lashing out because he can't get a date. How's that for ad hominem?

Post by **Dr. Dos** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:38 am

Quantum Rules With an Iron Fist

The rule for the internet is when a thread is locked you're not supposed to post the same thing again! :keen:

Post by **Alexis Janson** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:39 am

I'm a loose cannon who plays by her own rules: None

Post by **Dr. Dos** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:41 am

ssssss

Post by **Alexis Janson** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:44 am

Post by **MadTom** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:08 am

Help, help, I'm being repressed!

Aplsos · Post by **Aplsos** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:37 am

hey quantum p, LOCK THIS!!!

craycpanda · Post by **craycpanda** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:03 am

Flimsy wrote:

B2. If humans are imperfect, then it was god who ruined the perfection of the universe by creating them. If they are perfect, how did their actions lead to imperfection? It's still god's fault.

Da bible said:

26. Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Ultimately this also implies that God gave them free will. And since every being is unique we all have different points of view, alas we have different opinions. Just look at the current status of the world. In the west we have a president gone mad with power to relieve us all of the terrorists who, in their country, are considered heroes!

Sorry for turning this into a political debate, but it's pretty much inevitable seeing as religion and politics reflect eachother.

EDIT: Also the Bible says that it was the snake who tricked Eve into eating the forbidden fruit, so I guess God should have given man some life experience along with the garden of Eden.

Although this could have been avoided if Adam and Eve had watched the smash hit movie Minority Report where Tom Cruise is convinced that you can change your future fate if you know it in advance!

Post by **TTTPPP** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:42 am

I've tried to write this to avoid provoking further discussion (as Quantum's fed up with it). If you want to respond then PM me or something (though I'm out of the country from Sunday evening for two weeks).

Flimsy you've written a lot of stuff, some of which is specific to some Christians, some of which is general, some of which isn't based on anything anyone else posted (eg. all knowing, infinitely loving). Some of the stuff you've written as if it's arguments against what I've written, but it says what I was trying to say:

But apparently they don't want to be TOTALLY hidden, they want some people to figure it out, like a game of hide and seek or something.

Another interesting thing is saying the thing about how we 'make decisions' is with chemistry in our brains. (As an aside I've no idea what Aplsos's "brainscape" is, and couldn't find a definition easily). This is my understanding of what science says:
Particals and waves interact under certain conditions, and will always interact the same way under the same conditions.
Our brain/body is made of particals and waves.
Our behaviour is completely predictable if we were able to observe an 'initial state'.
So my understanding is that science doesn't allow for people having freedom of choice. I think the majority of the world would claim (wrongly or rightly) that they do have freedom of choice.
I also think many of these people don't realise that there's a mistake somewhere.

Anyway probably I've made a mistake - PM me if you like (I'll get round to replying, but possibly not for 2 weeks or so).

Post by **Alexis Janson** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:12 am

TTTPPP wrote:Flimsy you've written a lot of stuff, some of which is specific to some Christians, some of which is general, some of which isn't based on anything anyone else posted (eg. all knowing, infinitely loving). Some of the stuff you've written as if it's arguments against what I've written, but it says what I was trying to say

Please feel free to define your position more clearly, you have something of an advantage over me in that christianity is a framework within which exist thousands of wildly different belief systems and atheism is an easily summurizable rejection.

I assume you believe the bible is true in at least a metaphorical sense, so that narrows it down somewhat, but you people have an interestingly diverse set of interpretations of this supposedly divinely inspired document, so maybe it'd be good if you laid your cards on the table.

Does the god you believe in: (check all that apply)
Have absolute power over everything
Have knowledge of everything (past present and future)
Have emotions
Have goals (and what are they)
Love humanity (and to what degree)
Have a plan
Have a mind
Have a name (and what is it)

Did he (or it, or whatever):
Create the devil
Flood the entire earth at one point
Do all the other stuff it says he did in the bible

And is there anything else you'd like to share?

Another interesting thing is saying the thing about how we 'make decisions' is with chemistry in our brains. (As an aside I've no idea what Aplsos's "brainscape" is, and couldn't find a definition easily). This is my understanding of what science says:
Particals and waves interact under certain conditions, and will always interact the same way under the same conditions.
Our brain/body is made of particals and waves.
Our behaviour is completely predictable if we were able to observe an 'initial state'.
So my understanding is that science doesn't allow for people having freedom of choice. I think the majority of the world would claim (wrongly or rightly) that they do have freedom of choice.
I also think many of these people don't realise that there's a mistake somewhere.

This is essentially what science says, although some models of quantum mechanics say outcomes are random rather than predictable, or that the universe branches and all outcomes occur. But neither of those options is any better in terms of freedom of choice.

Let's say science is wrong and we are controlled not by the laws of physics, but by souls. Are these souls predictable, do they operate deterministically from initial conditions? If not, and they're not random, what are they?

I know the answer I'm going to get involves "free will", but what does that even MEAN? If free will is different from randomness, how is it different? In what way does an entity operating with free will behave differently from an entity operating with random will?

Post by **Alexis Janson** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:18 am

craycpanda wrote:Flimsy wrote:
B2. If humans are imperfect, then it was god who ruined the perfection of the universe by creating them. If they are perfect, how did their actions lead to imperfection? It's still god's fault.
Da bible said:
26. Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
Ultimately this also implies that God gave them free will. And since every being is unique we all have different points of view, alas we have different opinions. Just look at the current status of the world. In the west we have a president gone mad with power to relieve us all of the terrorists who, in their country, are considered heroes!

Sorry for turning this into a political debate, but it's pretty much inevitable seeing as religion and politics reflect eachother.

I have no idea what your point is.

lemmer · Post by **lemmer** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:24 am

Flimsy Parkins wrote:I have no idea what your point is.

I think it was "hurr durr, bush"

Post by **mania-[ker]** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:01 pm

do you guys jerk off after you write something you think is right

lemmer · Post by **lemmer** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:06 am

zamros wrote:hurr durr

Commodore · Post by **Commodore** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:10 am

zamros came so hard he forgot to put a question mark.